Guest: Peter Murphy, Vice President and Senior Advisor at Invest In Education Foundation.

Welcome to Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano, a podcast devoted to preserving your parental rights, including the right to choose the best school for your child. This podcast is dedicated to gaining the option of school choice for every parent in America.

Here's your host, educator and noted talk media commentator, Dom Giordano.

Hey, everyone. Welcome into this week's edition of the School Choice Show.

And we have a very special guest this week. Peter Murphy joins us.

He is the senior advisor and communications guy at Invest in Education Coalition.

What's the coalition, Peter, at the end of Invest in Education?

Coalition is a C4 organization. It's an advocacy organization that works with dozens of state-based and national organizations across the country to advocate school choice here in Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. And we achieved inclusion of the first national school choice legislation as part of the One Big Beautiful Bill that passed earlier this month and was signed into law by President Trump on the 4th of July.

Now, I've been all over that inside. I had the congressman on who does the subcommittee for K-12, I think it is, from out west, and it was brilliant. Take us inside, though. This is a big success. You're a guy who works this every day. How did it get done? Because maybe there's a plan here for more of this in various ways.

Well, it really started about four years ago when we revved up as an organization and started pitching the issue to one member at a time on Capitol Hill and their staff. I mean, there's literally thousands of people to talk to on a subject and you have to keep going at them and you have to involve constituents back home and get organizations that they know about and are impressed with who have email lists.

So you're doing two tracks. You're information sharing and educating members and their staff in particular on Capitol Hill. But then you're getting organizations back home in their home states also interested and supportive. So you're coming at them from two directions, really. You're having thousands of conversations. Congress is a big body of people. And that has a cumulative effect over time, like exercise.

It's slow. It's mundane. And, you know, we started when you really didn't have the people in place to get it passed, but you have to prepare for that day. And so the issue was marinated for many for these four years. And once President Trump, who had made school choice one of his staples in the campaign, both campaigns in 16 and 24, you know, when he got elected, that really was the final piece in bringing about.

or having a very reasonable chance of getting included. Now, we still, his election wasn't the certainty of getting this. You still have to compete with a multitude of issues and interests, even within, say, the majorities. And this issue thankfully emerged, I think, because of the legwork that we and groups across the country did over the years, that it really was well known to people. We made the case both on the merits, but also on the support and the consensus.

These people want it. And it's on the radar screen. And you guys, I love that word, marinated. I salute you, because as much as I'm on top of this stuff, I was kind of unaware of it till the 11th hour. Meanwhile, you guys were creeping up on it. So with Democrats, how many Democrats, first in the House, then in the Senate, was one body more open to at least be marinated? Peter, how did that go? Zero. Zero.

This is not our father's and grandfather's Democratic Party.

Especially on education. This isn't even Bill Clinton's or Barack Obama's Democratic Party.

Bill Clinton and Barack Obama had a soft spot for education reform.

They never went as far as the private school choice aspect that this bill allows.

But they were certainly very pro-charter school, which is a big step in that direction.

Giving Parents Choice Beyond the District Zoned School based on where you live. So they were open to that. That party is not present on Capitol Hill any longer. Take us in a little bit. I'm intrigued by this because you are somebody who, as you said, marinated four years, incrementalist, but it's got to be frustrating. Do they at least give you an audience? And if so, how does that go? When do you know in the middle of it there's an objection?

is there a talking point or a way they tell you no? What is it that happens?

Well, almost never do you get a member telling you no. It's not in their vocabulary. Politicians are people who say yes. They're elected to say yes. They get into office by saying yes. No is rarely in their vocabulary on either side. So in this case, our first objective was we knew there was more interest on the Republican side because the teacher unions,

decided to become a very partisan outfit. They basically abandoned any pretense of supporting

Republican office holders. No matter how much Republicans support public schools or

appropriate money to public schools back home, the teacher unions made a political decision

years ago at some point to just be partisan and to be a subsidiary of the Democratic Party,

or some would argue the Democratic Party became a subsidiary of the teacher unions.

Both of the bigs, are they the same? See, I've had Randy Weingarten. She agreed to come on the show and all that. She's pretty savvy. The NEA, to me, particularly the president now, they are way out there. And what their plan is for the 2025, this fascism, America's school kids, troopers in this, there seems to be a difference to me.

Well, maybe in style a little bit. She started off in New York. She's New York based where I'm from. She was the New York City Union leader, teacher union leader for New York City. That's when we got the charter school law passed. She was, you know, she's more charming than Betty Pringle, her counterpart in the National Education Association, but they're just as rabid. Sometimes you'll find Randy Weingarten competing to be Betty Pringle, be rabid and scream and take up all of these.

ancillary policy issues that have nothing to do with collective bargaining, nothing to do with working conditions or wages and salaries. They have become party apparatchiks. And Republicans see that and they resent it because, again, Republicans care about public schools too, right? And they don't cut money in public education. It's none of those things. But when the teacher unions decided to be very partisan on this, there's a problem, but there's also in a way an advantage.

The Republicans became the party of change and reform. And turns out they became education. They became more favorable on education than Democrats. Interestingly enough, that was a first for them. You had the Glenn Youngkin election in Virginia in 2021. That was a big time game changer that showed Republicans they could win on this, which they really didn't. That was not pervasive thinking before that. And then you had COVID. You had this backlash of COVID where the teacher unions exposed themselves.

that their interest and their days off mattered. Children's learning did not. That's what COVID revealed. I mean, I've done that for decades, but the union leadership, and let's stress that, the union bosses, we're not talking about rank-and-file teachers here, but the union bosses got the days off well past the point where we knew COVID was not lethal to children or healthy adults or anything. So you combine all of that, and you end up with a Democratic Party that has a lot of

of sympathetic legislators like Hakeem Jeffries, the leader who was supportive as a Brooklyn Assemblyman in New York State. He was a supportive of school choice. Lots of members are like that. There are others of them, but if they stick their neck out, they're afraid of getting primaried by one of the major interests in their party. So they really were pretty reticent on the subject. And we knew that at the very least, let's get the Republican

Let's get this a priority for them. And only when the Democrats see it's a serious issue could we potentially get some support. But then you had the situation, Dom, where once it became part of the budget reconciliation process, I mean, doesn't matter how good the issue was, any issue. Like taxes on tips is a good example. The Democrats, in effect, voted against removing taxes on tips because it was part of that larger bill that they could

not vote for. So I think we were certainly part of that. So again, it was a very partisan vote.

Peter, this is all a big buildup, particularly where I am in Pennsylvania, but you have scope that I may not nationwide. Josh Shapiro is a guy in the proverbial crosshairs here because he, I think, is one of the most effective Democrats. He's been running for president. We get him since the seventh or eighth grade. I've really duked it out with him over the years.

He didn't start that early to win. Oh, he, I mean, campaign mode at the spin room this year. He came running in. I mean, racing with a crew of about 75 people and holding up a Pennsylvania flag. Even the other politicians were on. Whoa. So I'm told by the president, the female of the state Senate in Pennsylvania on the air that he will not. You guys have shepherded this through. And for our listeners, the parliamentarium, as I understand it, took away the federal law.

Now it goes state by state.

To authorize.

Yeah, to authorize it.

As you know, this is essentially free money.

Nothing's being taken away from the public schools.

And I wonder, hey, how about if we, Josh, we throw in another billion for the public schools, but you let this.

I don't even know then.

She told me, the head of the state senate, he will not go for this.

There's a guy in Harrisburg from the suburbs who's the leader of the Democrat side, and he will not allow it.

And why is that? Because it has nothing to do with children. It has everything to do with brute force, party politics and intimidation. This has nothing to do with kids, which is so shameful. Josh Shapiro knows better. I hope if that's true what you're saying, and I'm not—

Yeah, oh yeah.

I hope he reconsiders. And the fact of the matter is there's a lot of interest on the pro-school choice side.

You start with poor people, minorities, immigrant families, labor union. In New York State, when we advocated this years ago, when Andrew Cuomo was governor, who was actually supportive of it, Andrew Cuomo understood, I can do other things for the teacher unions. I want to do this because you had other labor unions in favor of it. It was a way to help their own members. Why not give a scholarship to an officer's child before the officer dies? What a thought, right?

A lot of these non-teacher labor unions got on board with this in New York. Are they? Are they still? Because we haven't had that reconnection. We got to reconnect with a lot of those people. Yeah, because you're underlying something going forward for me because you're right in the sphere of something I don't have access to. And I agree with you. We used to see these labor unions. Now they seem to be mum. They seem to be cowed. Although the head of the building trades might want to put them on your radar screen in Philadelphia.

40,000 workers, Ryan Boyer, was the first guest on the School Choice show. And he said he would be a hypocrite since his parents lied so that he would get school choice. He lied for his son to be in another school. The guy couldn't be more brutally honest on this issue. He seems to be kind of bulletproof on it. But not enough labor unions, that would be a huge play.

They should step up because they can deliver for their members, give their

members' children the choice they want them in because they don't make enough money to

afford private school, right? Especially in a major metropolitan area like Philadelphia.

And it's a great way to deliver a benefit to them without permission of the employer.

You can do this without that. And so it's an obvious, you know, and many of these adults grew up in parochial schools.

when it was more affordable. And now it's out of reach for their children. But this puts it within reach of their children. They should be on board with this. They should be pressuring Josh Shapiro and others. How many immigrants come to this country having had religious education in their home countries? They come here. They can get the same thing. They're working as nurses, assistant nurses in these hospitals, Latino people. They want this too. The polls consistently show that.

So the bottom line is, if any governor that does not opt into this is denying not just the opportunity for choice in the private school sector, but public schools can raise money through this law. They can fund computers for children. They can give out scholarships in the form of tutoring, supplies.

How do the public schools do that? I was completely unaware of that.

Yeah, so public schools can start C3 organizations, separate organizations, but they could be set up under this law to benefit children in, say, in more than one school. You have to benefit kids that are in more than one school. So you can have a school district and kids apply for scholarships that can be used for a range of educational needs. Now, the tuition wouldn't be one of them because they don't pay tuition in school, but they could

They could get tutoring help. They could get technology software, computers, supplies. They could do that. And guaranteed they will do that if they're smart because the law allows them to do it. And if you're a sitting school board member or you're a superintendent, why would you not access additional revenue without having to raise people's taxes? That's going to be a bigger tell than as big as the governor's. And I can tell your passion and you've been through the ringer.

I really appreciate that and with all the coverage that's out there first of all the big

beautiful bill this part of it did not get a lot of coverage until the end and two you just told me

something that many guests did not talk about the benefit to the public schools so a couple things

the blue state governors yeah handicap this a little bit you've talked to people in Congress

Shapiro is they're starting to write about this here locally he's very clever standing on the ledge he's done a lot of stuff in this area and then reneged on it I'm betting he won't do it though in the end because of the you know I hope I'm wrong because of the teachers unions and you look at it nationally I would see a guy like and I don't know in Polis in Colorado I see as a Democrat who will do it but are there more more of these Democrats or no it

I think Tom Evers in Wisconsin is not running again. He's older. He's he has a an education background. I hear good things about him. It's impossible to know the problem with folks like Shapiro and Newsom and Pritzker. You know, they all have aspirations when you're running for the highest office. You know, you're calculating how you what your road is to the nomination.

And the teachers are a major player in the Democratic Party nomination for president and vice president.

And so that's the calculation they're making.

But look, if they don't, any governor on either side that does not opt in is saying no to children in every sector of education, public, non-public, religious.

They're saying no to them.

And they're making it glaring.

The spotlight's on them. It's not like they can say, well, if the legislature passes a bill, I'll sign it.

You know what? Whoever came up with that, you guys or whoever did it, putting it on one person, that is savvy. That's exactly what you have to do. Put it on the governor.

There's a spotlight on that individual. Do they want to announce that they're basically completely bought and paid for hacks for the adults, the teacher bosses in the system who have ideologically,

oppose this, even though, again, you have studies in Florida, Ohio, where school choices help the public schools. They have to up their game, and that's another thing that they look askance at. So, look, nobody has to decide this until a year from now. They really have until the end of 26. They don't have to decide it today. A lot can change.

But if we get a few of them deciding it, doesn't that help to say, yo, what the heck are you doing over here? Why is it so slow? Peer pressure could help. But the other thing they have to think about is what's going to happen is you're going to have donors in Pennsylvania who want to help their public schools and they're not going to be allowed to. You're going to have donors in Pennsylvania who are then going to donate to their school or their family. They're going to want that $1,700 as a credit off their federal

income tax, they'd rather give it to a support children somewhere.

You're going to see Pennsylvania donors donating out of state and other states who do opt in are going to get more resources from out of state donors because.

Someone like if Shapiro doesn't allow his state to participate, you're going to see.

Did you say, Peter, they can donate to the public school to and get credit or just private?

Anybody can donate to any scholarship grant organization anywhere in the country.

So in a state where you opt in, say Ohio opts in, okay?

You have donors in Pennsylvania who can give to an SGO in Ohio.

Right across the board.

Get the federal tax credit, and that money isn't going to help kids in Pennsylvania.

It's going to go help the neighbor state, but the donor is going to get $1,700 off their federal income tax.

They'd rather have it go to education.

They may be have a cousin or a family member out there or something.

Exactly.

So Pennsylvania is going to, any state that doesn't opt in is going to lose money to other states who do.

Okay.

Peter, again, I got to get you back on as this continues, because as much as I cover this, I didn't know in the big, beautiful bill or in this part of it, the fact that the public schools can even set up stuff here that could be significant.

And they will.

They're stupid not to.

Yeah.

Well, I'm going to blast this.

What are the Philadelphia public schools do?

I haven't heard a word about this.

And you would think, well, maybe they don't want to do that until they see what Shapiro does.

I mean, Tom, I think the problem, too, is you have this education public ed blob that, you know, the teachings dominate that lobby, that advocacy.

At least in New York, my home state, this was the case.

And, you know, the school boards, members, the superintendents, they sort of glom onto the teacher unions. But in this case, you know, their interests diverge. You know, the teacher unions have this ideological fixation against this. But as a practical matter, this is good for all kids in every school setting. And that's who we should be looking out for here.

Absolutely. For Invest in Education Coalition, where do we go, Peter? Invest in Education.org is our website. Invest in Education, one word, dot org. And check it out. And, you know, we're going to keep advocating for this, getting governors to opt in and making sure people, you know, kept getting the word out on it.

Well, thank you. And again, I can see your passion and savvy. Congratulations on taking all those meetings and actually getting this put into play. Almost that parliamentarian was at the gate. Yeah. I mean, look, it's a really big breakthrough, historic breakthrough. Not a perfect bill. Nothing ever is. This is sausage making that we had to deal with. But we're going to work with it and build upon it. And I appreciate you having me on, Dom, very much. Peter, anytime. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you.

Now, if you want to reach me any week here with the School Choice Show, with Dom Giordano, just send your email, domshow, D-O-M-S-H-O-W at AOL.com, domshow, D-O-M-S-H-O-W at AOL.com. Josh Shapiro, where I am in Pennsylvania

for this. It will be like Bill Clinton's Sister Solja moment. Do you remember that? In 1992, Clinton running in a very radical Democrat party trying to differentiate himself. He was at a Jesse Jackson event and he went after Sister Solja for her racial racist comments. And that distinguished Bill Clinton as a different type of Democrat, whether he was or not. It was a calling card.

Josh Shapiro would be the guy that could run on and talk about this.

You mean to say that can't be done? You just heard Peter Murphy. That's as good as I can get. Lay out what's in this, where this goes. This is disgusting that we are even having these sorts of debates. But guess what? The teachers unions, he works with them every day at the national level, as he said. They are the adversary here. There is no doubt about it.

Who would be in the public schools even gained by this? You heard what he said. Various monies, tutoring help and other backup things you'd be able to get for the public schools. They would set up some kind of nonprofit entity here and they'd get that. And you heard what he said. If Pennsylvania doesn't do it, Ohio is going to do it right over the border. People will send that money to an Ohio nonprofit in order to take $1,700 off of their income tax and help them.

This show is about winning the civil rights issue of our time. And hearing some of the stuff from a guy that deals with Congress, you heard what he said, zero Democrats. It is appalling, but true. Dom Giordano, have a great week here on the School Choice Show. Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano is a presentation of Giordano Productions, LLC. Copyright 2025. All rights reserved.