Guest: Steve Miller, who founder Ascend Learning, a wildly successful charter school grou…

Welcome to Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano, a podcast devoted to preserving your parental rights, including the right to choose the best school for your child. This podcast is dedicated to gaining the option of school choice for every parent in America.

Here's your host, educator and noted talk media commentator, Dom Giordano.

Hey, everyone. This is Dom Giordano. You know my background teaching, then going into talk radio.

But I never, with all the stuff I was involved in, launched all kinds of networks of schools, charter schools, that have really reached a staggering number of teachers and students.

Our guest today, though, has done that. Stephen Wilson, headline in the New York Times. He's a foe of DEI in schools, but not a fan of Trump's crusade. And he is a guy with a big background in the field of charter education, alternative education, I would call it. Steve is also a senior fellow at the Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research. Stephen, welcome. Thanks for joining us. You are an inspiration to me, given what I've done and how you were.

canceled, I guess, in one enterprise, but then come back in an even bigger way.

Why did you get involved with charter schools? How did that happen?

Oh, first of all, Doug, thank you so much for having me today. It's wonderful to be with you.

I got involved with charters because I came to a conclusion that many others that are worried about education, particularly urban education, came to, which is that it's not possible to reform the largest school systems in America.

It's a fool's errand. And the best way to reform them is to build new high-quality

schools around them with the hope not just that we're creating new great seats for kids, but that in the end, introducing a little bit of competition will improve the majority system. So that's the theory, of course. I believe in it as much as ever. And we've seen the incredible results that it has delivered for children.

So I guess the principal first stop for you, Stephen, was the Ascend Learning Network that you set up. Talk about what the vibe was, the mantra there. I mean, when I read in the New York Times about you, seemed to be different than some of these other schools that were successful academically. But for my background in teaching, they were a bit too robotic. People marching in and out in the classroom. I didn't get a sense it was that, which makes it even more remarkable to have.

because you had student bodies where great numbers were in poverty and maybe, you know, the classroom atmosphere could be difficult and you didn't have an approach that was authority laden in the manner of some of these other schools.

I'm so, so glad you brought that up. I think that's such an interesting dimension. So, look, all of the charters that began in that period were informed by what happened in schools before them.

which is that in many urban systems, the classroom and the schools were dangerous. And it wasn't just gangs and the threat of violence, but it was the low level disorder. You know, that piece of paper crumpled up on the floor, which no one bothers to pick up. The children talking in the back of the room. These are not conditions under which teachers can achieve success and under which kids can experience great education. So the reason the schools that you're describing began with

a lot of order is because it was a response to the chaotic situation in so many classrooms. But what we discovered at Ascend was that we could move away from some of the most rigid features there that you're alluding to, and it wouldn't change the result. So we adopted something called responsive classroom, which is widely used in suburban schools to create really joyful rooms where kids feel a strong sense of belonging, where they feel

and understood. And we were able to back away from a lot of the merits and demerits and systems of that kind. And then there were a lot of other networks that did the same thing. So this model that has come to be known, unfortunately, because it's not a great name, as No Excuses Education, has really evolved over time to something that is quite different from how it started 10, 15 years ago.

So you have success with that academic and also the kids feeling value, the joy of learning. Yes. And it comes upon an era. And we have seen this here in Philadelphia in different forms where there's an anti-racist message. So, Steve, when you heard that with Kendi, I'm not sure if he's Dr. Kendi or not.

What is it that your perception is of anti-racism as the core value in a classroom? And you said something I'll get to in a moment that I starred several times about that approach. How does that differ than just saying treat people equally, equality under law? What does anti-racism say that you have to do in a charter school system like yours?

Yes, let me first just say that the other thing that we did as part of this transformation that you were alluding to is we also moved away from largely didactic or explicit instruction to a more progressive inquiry-based model with great success. And you as an educator would, I'm sure we would enjoy talking about that. But you get to your question in anti-racist thinking as promulgated by people like Professor Kendi,

The idea is that every action is either racist or anti-racist. This was a very energizing idea for a lot of people. But what happened when it came into schools is that instead of the North Star being great teaching, ensuring that every period of instruction, there is great teaching and effective teaching, the new North Star was, are we being the most anti-racist?

that we can be. And of course, that's a very amorphous idea to all of us who started and staff these schools. The most anti-racist thing that you can do is equip every child with a great education so that they can escape a minimum wage existence, so they can move out of poverty into the middle class, so that they can have real choices. And what happened when this new ideology came into these very successful school networks is that they lost

lost their way. They lost the direction that they had of achievement and getting kids to college. And results just plummeted.

Let me ask you as an overstatement to say that, and you wrote a piece that we'll talk about around this, that this idea of merit, academic achievement at high levels was started to be seen as white supremacy or a white value.

That's precisely right. And so the ideas of Kendi, but also of Robin DiAngelo, who wrote the bestselling book, White Fragility, which is also about how to be an anti-racist, quote unquote, was vulgarized in the ideas of someone named Tima Okun, who purported to identify what she called the characteristics of white supremacy culture. And notably, among those characteristics,

were things like objectivity, worship of the written word, urgency. And this was not a fringe idea. It is very widely used, really used in almost every large DEI training, including a training that was required for all administrators in the New York City public schools, of course, the largest school system in America. I just said to that, huh, I'm not sure I can imagine a worse

to the teachers of Black and Brown students than that the love of the written word is whiteness, is white supremacist, and therefore doesn't relate to you.

I would like to see Marva Collins in a debate over this as she was having, and you've had success with this at a point, kids in fourth or fifth grade, whatever, reading Shakespeare.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, she's always been a very important inspiration, and there are many others just like her. They were the teachers that inspired Michael Feinberg and Dave Levin at KIPP. They didn't just invent this out of whole cloth. They saw extraordinary educators, one Latino and one Black, who were killing it in their classrooms. And Mike and Dave just set out to learn from them and emulate what they were doing.

So, you know, this all comes down to saying, if we really respect children, we're going to give them great teaching and we're going to set no limits on what they can achieve. But one thing we will never do is denigrate books, reading, math, and claim that it'd be something that is harmful or that is white supremacist in the most extreme case.

You talked about what went downhill were academic achievement and standards because

indoctrination is boredom. Indoctrination is awfully boring. To be a child trapped in a room exposed to

only one set of ideas, as opposed to the great beauty of a vibrant liberal arts education,

which is that you are wrestling with, you are encountering a diversity of ideas,

And you have to figure out which ideas are the most powerful and resonate the most with you. And by the way, you might change your mind. And that's the thrill and the transgression of a great education. But in anti-racist education, you hear only one perspective and anything else is essentially not permissible. Right. And I wanted to be fair in this that you make the point in the article, and maybe I can condense it, that

We're not talking about banishing DEI. There's a line here between saying

sometimes in the some of the Trump officials getting rid of people that are noticed because

they're a pioneer who happen to be African-American or taking a name off the ship.

This is an idea that is almost as out of bounds, in my view, as what we're talking about here.

I'm really glad to hear you say that. If I could just comment on that, Don.

I entirely agree with that. And I want to be super clear that I think that there are many forms of DEI that are very positive, but not the most common form which pits one group of kids or adults against another. Rather, what we should be doing with DEI is fostering belonging and fostering the idea that we all can recognize each other's common humanity in this world. Let us come together rather than apart.

And so DEI done well is a very good thing.

But then I should also say to your point that I very strongly oppose efforts to, by fiat or by new legal restrictions, try to control what happens in schools and to ban DEI.

This is just taking a new form of illiberalism from the right and trying to use it against the illiberalism on the left that they don't like. That's not the right approach. And it has very grave risks, including shutting down the real teaching of American history. We need to know our past, good, bad, and ugly. And we don't want to threaten teachers with the loss of jobs for explaining what happened in Jim Crow.

or in the civil rights movement or any other part of America's history.

I would tell you, Stephen Wilson, my observation of you to this interview and reading this is that you have succeeded and you're a very confident guy.

I often hear educators look at how staggering things are out there and they lose confidence.

It becomes overwhelming. But you've also said something I agree with.

You're not going to turn around the big city schools and the model of fighting that battle.

They have to become more competitive by what you're doing here.

And maybe that's where your confidence comes in that we know what to do.

And I think when parents hear that and they know there's choice of networks like yours or a thousand other charters there, which sometimes are not so good either.

They really have to do their own research.

So I wanted to ask you your advice to parents.

That's what we're trying to do to make this determination and look at it in this manner that you and I are. Yes. Well, I think parents come already with the right convictions, which is that an excellent education is essential for their children's flourishing. And I want them to know that they can obtain it. And in urban charters, particularly urban charter networks, you're quite right to point out that charters,

as a whole are not that impressive. But urban charters, and particularly large urban charter networks, have posted striking results. And researchers on both the left and the right, so Brookings Institution, the most prominent think tank on the left, and on the right, Stanford, have come to the same conclusion, that this is a once-in-a-century reform in terms of its effectiveness. So we need parents to come out and to demand more charters,

to remove the artificial caps on the number of charters, which is purely a give to the established education interests, and to demand what is their rightful inheritance, which is a great public education. It's entirely doable.

Yes, and I would think if they're not ready, they can't want to make a choice, or the resources are not quite there yet, although in this big bill going through Congress, there's a cap of $5 billion that would go for school choice,

where people would get a tax break.

The charter school, what's the advantage of a parent with all this experience that you have,

maybe going charter that's good versus going to the private school?

Is there any advantage that you see?

Well, that is a great question.

And I'm going to take a position here that is probably unpopular with some on the right,

which is I think the charter vehicle is precisely the right choice structure

because it combines parental choice and therefore the introduction of a market mechanism, which is sorely needed, introduces a press for competition. It demonstrably improves the district schools as well, but it also has an element of public accountability. The school, the charter schools are accountable to what's called an authorizer, a state agency typically, for which they get a five-year license to operate. And if they don't produce the results,

They can and will be closed.

And that has turned out to be a very effective kind of public private partnership model.

I'm worried that in a purely private school choice setting, there will be an awful lot of bad schools redeeming vouchers and it will take a very long time for it to settle out.

So I'm a fan of something that's already working, which is urban charters.

And I think that's what we should have more of.

It's not time to turn away from it.

You know, education, as you know, too well is very faddish and people get tired of ideas and they move on to the next shiny thing. But in charters, we have something which is just stunningly successful. And I hope that we all stick with it. Well, Stephen, thank you. Where do people find you? Where do our listeners find Stephen Wilson? Well, you can go to the lost decade dot org, which is the website for the project and for the book. And you can read all about it there and find out about other podcasts.

and interviews and so on. And then you can buy the book on Amazon, The Lost Decade. Stephen, I'll get you on the radio show. Thank you so much. I would like that very much. Great. Thank you. I appreciate talking with you today, Stephen. Thank you very much. All right. There is Stephen Wilson, our guest this week. Charter School Perspective here on the School Choice Show. We had a lot of other things to talk about, but check Stephen out. Check out the theory of charter schools. Thank you, Stephen.

Thank you.

I'm going to play you a clip from a little nine-year-old.

And when you hear her voice, I don't know if you'll know that she's nine years old or believe that, testifying in Nevada.

Her name is Juliet Leong.

Testifying in Nevada, the legislature was having a hearing recently on school choice.

Listen to this little girl.

Listen to what she tells us in her view, a nine-year-old, about school choice. My name is Juliet Leong, spelled J-U-L-I-E-T-T-E-L-E-O-N-G. And I'm here today to express my strong support for Bill AB 584 to expand school choice. Thanks to Governor Lombardo, Nevada's on its way to becoming a true school choice state, giving the children the tools to thrive.

and too slow to keep up with the world shaped by rapidly changing job markets.

That's why families need options like smaller private schools, charter schools, and homeschooling.

I spell at a third grade level and do high school level math, and no school could accommodate my needs. So I'm homeschooled.

And because of that, I've performed at Carnegie Hall, won six national math competitions, and donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to non-profit organizations through the sales of my paper.

But what about the child with the same potential, except whose family can't afford to homeschool? It's not just about academics. It's about unlocking talents, building confidence, and creating opportunities. It's about teaching kids to solve problems and make a difference. Since every kid is different and every family has different circumstances,

students for real-world success and that everyone who wants a job gets a job. The world is moving forward, and Nevada needs to move forward with the world. Thank you, Governor Lombardo, for fighting for school choice. All right, that is Juliet Leong testifying in the Nevada legislature on school choice. I'm going to try to get her on the podcast because, my goodness, that is compelling stuff from a nine-year-old. But she's right.

Every bit of it tells us exactly where we're going.

Now, where I am headquartered in Pennsylvania, I'm in Philadelphia.

This is a problem, though, in Pennsylvania that makes national news.

We are seeing we're at the time of the year where the budget starts.

And the Republicans in the state have freshly brought up school choice again.

I'm looking at lawmakers like Representative Martina White of Philadelphia

Republican. She talked about the measure presented would be the type of thing that finally

would free up kids lifeline scholarships. They're called in Pennsylvania to get a quality education.

And it's not just in urban Pennsylvania. It's in the sticks. It's in rural Pennsylvania where there are huge issues and people are hungry for quality

schools and choice. So watch for this in Pennsylvania because Josh Shapiro, the governor, is a guy reputed to be running for president. I believe that he is. And Josh Shapiro has gone all over the place on this issue of school choice. Now, in coming weeks here on the School Choice Show, on schoolchoiceshow.com, you'll be hearing Representative Kevin Piley. He is the chair of the House subcommittee that covers

K-12 education. He's important when we have him on. I'm waiting for the timing on this with the big, beautiful bill. He's important because Kevin Kiley is the architect of the school choice program that's inside that big, beautiful bill. You've heard all the battles back and forth on it. Even now, President Trump and Musk, all that going back and forth. Kiley has gotten into the bill and it passed in the House that what you would do is you would

to this fund. It's capped at $5 billion, and then you would get that break on your federal income tax.

This is believed it would free up tens of thousands of parents and kids across the country to get a quality education. It's not being talked about enough. Maybe I shouldn't either. I just want to get it through. If this happens, it's another liberating moment.

So be watching for this as the battle starts over what stays in, what goes out, the money and everything else with the so-called big, beautiful bill. Inside there, though, is school choice. You know, each week I try to bring you here on schoolchoiceshow.com. I try to bring you why or how in the world do we continue with a system that's such a failure? The big city public schools, for example.

Today, let's center in on the Baltimore Public Schools. Baltimore City Public Schools, according to Real Clear Investigations, are consistently among the worst performing in the nation. But that hasn't stopped the district from beefing up its payroll with scores of administrators, executives, and directors. In 2019, Baltimore Schools had 7,053 employees, earning a total of $562.3 million.

By 2024, there were 13,023 employees earning 949.2 million.

The list of job titles is dizzying.

Less than half of employees are listed as teachers or principals, less than half.

The other half includes 67 directors and assistant directors, 16 executive directors.

There are 285 people with manager in their job title. 58 supervisors, 63 analysts, 80 coordinators, and 46 administrators. Positions include the manager of energy efficiency and the systems administrator of customer care. Meanwhile, the abysmal scores, the violence, the difficulties, the wire is basically telling the truth is what I'm saying on all this. It all goes on.

So we talked today with Stephen Wilson, who is a big proponent of charter schools. I have to look into and see Baltimore and charter schools. The problem is these big city school districts cap artificially the number of charter schools that can exist in the number of students. Here in Philadelphia, the mass charter schools are brilliant. Yet I believe they have nine or 10,000 people on their waiting list. What good does it do?

those nine or 10,000 if they can't access. So it's not just, as in this big, beautiful bill, pushing for vouchers, private school education, enabling parents, you're your child's first and best teacher. It's also pushing for more charters, fewer caps on the number of students, and the big city public schools or the rural ones will have to compete. They'll have to get better if parents want to stay in the classic public school.

versus the new way of the charter schools. I was really thrilled to bring you Steve Wilson this week. Thanks each and every week for listening to this podcast. Again, if you have a comment, you have something you want me to know about person, whatever it may be, go to dom show, D-O-M-S-H-O-W dom show at AOL.com. We will see you next week and hopefully there's progress for school choice vouchers and freeing up parents and students.

to get a great education. Thank you for listening this week. Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano is a presentation of Giordano Productions LLC. Copyright 2025. All rights reserved.