A Democrat Makes the Case for School Choice

Welcome to Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano, a podcast devoted to shedding light on issues pertaining to making America smart again. These include, among many topics, school choice and parental rights. This podcast is dedicated to reversing the deeply disturbing trend known as the dumbing down of America. Now, here's your host, Educator.

and noted talk media commentator, Dom Giordano.

All right, everyone, Dom Giordano with you for Old School, New School, Next School.

Welcome in a special one year anniversary show.

Today's guest had joined us early on.

It was episode 12.

So 40 episodes ago, we've gone through a lot of different people.

But I would argue he is a former Democratic mayor of the city of Providence,

the CEO of Democrats for Education Reform, and I would argue one of the five most important people in the school choice school reform movement because of the unique perspective he brings to it in angle and skills, which are really important. Jorge Elorza joins us here on Old School, New School, Next School. Jorge, welcome back, and I mean that sincerely. You were a great guest. Plus, the evolution for you to be, were you, you didn't seem like you,

You were against school choice. You were for school reform. You strike me as a pragmatist, like an FDR, and in some ways Trump, looking for some way to do the right thing here, aside from a political brand or label. Or were you an opponent of school choice? Yeah. Well, it is great to be back, and congratulations on the one-year anniversary. You know, as you mentioned, I was the mayor of Providence. You know, I used to be somebody dumb.

And something that we always said is that there are three main political parties in the United States. There are Republicans, there are Democrats, and there are mayors. And mayors are just focused on getting stuff done. Yes, we're very practical. And I have to admit that when I ran for office, even ed reform more generally, I did not run waving the ed reform flag because, to be honest with you, I didn't even know what ed reform was.

My focus was to fix and help transform the schools where 90% of the kids studied. So that was my focus. And I got elected and I got to work right away. And I soon, you know, came to see all of the barriers, all of the dead ends, all of the hurdles that you had to overcome to get the most minimal things done. Not sure if you've ever heard it said that if you really want to understand how a system works, try changing it.

So suffice to say that I just learned a great deal about the policy and politics of education. And so my views evolved during my time in office. And I came to understand that if we really want to move the needle and we want to accelerate the pace of improvement, we have to look outside of the traditional schools as well. And that led me to embrace charter schools and that led me to embrace the full range of choice. Because as far as we're concerned, I believe in public education in the sense that public education

is a goal. It's not a particular set of institutions. Our goal is to create an educated public, and we should be open to any tool that helps us accomplish that goal.

You have a page on your website in which you talk about, and I believe you mean Democrat politicians like the mayor of Scranton, who's now running for Congress, as open to school choice. Can you talk about some of those politicians?

And is that what you're getting at? They're at least open to some kinds of ways of getting school choice. Well, there are different kinds of school choice. And the reality is that, you know, there are, you know, there's a long term goal that we have. And my vision for the party is that, or not just for the party, but my vision for ed reform generally, is that there be a bipartisan consensus around this idea, the concept of the money follows the money.

the child. So I'm under no illusion that that's going to happen over the course of one election. That's a long-term project. I think that would transform our system in the way that we educate kids. It would empower parents. It would make sure that schools are more responsive to the needs of families. I think the system would be much more flexible and dynamic. So that's what I'm working towards. But this is a very unorthodox or it's a departure from orthodox

that I don't expect too many elected officials to embrace wholeheartedly right away on the left. But we're starting to like lay the crumbs. And that's where this new federal scholarship tax credit comes in. That's where more of an openness to alternatives to the traditional public schools comes in. You know, so, you know, we support a range of candidates. And as long as candidates are open to just new ways of thinking about education and understand the status quo,

just as in cutting it. We want to support them and help, you know, help their growth as elected officials so they can be effective in delivering results for kids. Well, yes, that's why I'm encouraged by your work second to none. I would argue, though, one of the biggest barriers to this on the left, the constituents are the teachers unions. They're not going to let a lot of these politics. And I say that as a former teacher, and I've seen this up close. I don't even think those unions, a little aside, represent a lot of the teachers.

There's a lot of activists that rise to the top levels on this. Randy Weingarten is one of my five best guests in talk radio. Provocative, smart, and all that. But their poll on Democrat politicians, is that what it is? Hakeem Jeffries, I think, as one's often cited, was a school choice person of the year as a legislator before. He's nowhere near that now. So a lot of them feel they have to evolve. And I'm sure off the record, they would tell you, hey, I can't do this.

I'm going to try to help kids. I guess I would ask it this way. Are charter schools at least the landing part? Have we gotten past that where Democrat politicians can safely be for charter schools in your view? So there's a lot there. Let me answer charter schools and then pan out. So, you know, we are strong proponents of charter schools, particularly high-performing charter schools.

I think Democrats should stand for excellence. And when something is working, let's replicate it, right? Let's spread it so that more people have access to it. I think that's rather common sense. I think that most of the general public agrees with that. But what has stood in the way is that Democrats are staunchly opposed to any alternatives to the traditional public schools. So to pan out and get to your point about teachers' unions, they do have this grip on the Democratic Party.

What I think is important for not just policymakers, but for the general public to understand is that they're a labor group and they have labor interests. And when we're talking about the executive committee of teachers unions or the president of a teacher's union, remember that they are elected officials themselves. They are responsive, not just to all of their members, but to the members that show up at the union hall, right?

They push. They vote at higher rates. And these tend to be more tenured teachers, folks that are more interested in pension and job security. And so to make the case that teachers union presidents are more interested in the labor interests of their members than the educational interests of their kids, that's not a provocative statement. That's a truism.

And I'm of the opinion that the problem is not unions acting like unions. The problem is democratic officials believing that union interests and kids' interests are the same thing, collapsing that fiction and building our entire education agenda on that fiction. And so ultimately, we have to understand that the interests of teachers, unions and kids don't always align. And as a party,

It should be clear what side we're on whenever those interests diverge.

But unfortunately, we have too often, you know, sided on union interests when we should side on the communities and students' interests.

You use the word, and I see your passion for it, too, and you were the mayor.

You understand you have to deliver, you know, and when you deliver, people see that.

They rally.

If it's a mayor, potholes, things like this, they seem small things.

But they, you know, get people to say that guy, Jorge, is really doing something here.

So the big, beautiful bill, two Democrats.

I admire one.

The other, you know, a little bit political pressure.

She did the right thing, though, since you and I have talked.

Governor Polis, I think, is a guy of the left, might even run for president.

Really smart guy.

Only interviewed him once ever in Colorado.

He was the first, Jorge, to say, yes, I'm going to take this new money, not taken away from the public schools, because it would be crazy not to, in that the other states around Colorado would certainly take it, and we're talking billions of dollars. Governor Hochul, even more influential, arguably, governor of New York, has signed off on this with a little proviso, a little wiggle room. I wanted to give you a case in point, though, and see, you're trying to bridge these gaps.

Josh Shapiro, I think, is one of the better politicians out there. He's going to be very tough in the 2028 race. And yet he talked about children of God. He talked about all that stuff when he first became governor. And he was a, OK, I'm open to education reform, meaning school choice a bit, and then reneged on it, couldn't do it, and now won't say anything about it. And this is a master Democrat politician, I think.

So talk about those three governors. They're interesting. Bashir is another one running for president who wouldn't sign off on it, even though he went to a private school. I think his kids do. And he got overridden by the legislature. So it's exciting how many states have already signed off on this.

Yeah. So, yeah. So you're talking about the federal scholarship tax credit program.

Right.

And yeah. So, you know, for the listeners, it's a one to one $1,700 tax credit that we as taxpayers can all take. So from the perspective of a taxpayer, we have a decision to make. For the states that opt, if we live in a state that opts in, I as a taxpayer can send my $1,700 to the U.S. Treasury, to that black hole, who knows what the heck happens with it over there.

Or I can redirect those $1,700 to a youth-serving organization in my community that's doing work that aligns with my values. And so as awareness, as we raise awareness about this program over time, I got to imagine that since it costs us nothing, most American taxpayers, we're going to choose to keep the money in our community than to send it to the U.S. Treasury. And so it really is a no-brainer.

And looking at it from the perspective of a state, as you mentioned, every governor has to individually decide whether to opt into the program or not. And so, you know, for a governor, the question is really, all right, if I opt out, then by default, the first $1,700 of every single federal taxpayer's taxes will leave my state and it will go to the general treasury. Or if I opt in, we have the chance to recoup as much of it as possible and use it to support our kids.

That's a no-brainer. Democrats have been hesitant, first of all, because you know the political world we live in. It comes from the other side, and so you just view it skeptically because I get that. Other Democrats, to be fair to them, is they're waiting for the federal rules to be published. Governors have all kinds of things coming at them every day. If they don't have to decide right away, they can push it off, especially if they can say,

They want to know what they're opting in or out of before they do so. And you can't do so before the rules are out. So to be fair to everyone there. But I think it's really exciting to see the way that the tide has turned. So as soon as this law was passed, there were three Democratic governors who said, we want nothing to do with this. Right. Each one of those three Democratic governors has backtracked and said, no, we're actually taking a look at this. We're reconsidering. We're waiting for the rules.

In the interim, Governor Polis has opted in. Governor Polis is just the best, especially on education issues. He's top notch. So he was the first to opt in. And I love his message when he opted in. There are a lot of folks that are saying, well, this doesn't have the guardrails that we need. All kinds of things can go wrong. He's approaching it with, you know, a quote unquote abundance mindset, which is the only thing that's limiting us here is our own creativity on how we can do it.

put these dollars to use for our kids. That's the mindset that the party needs right now on education and beyond. And then Governor Hochul, I got to give her so much credit. She didn't have to opt in. And she also didn't have to opt in so early. But she stood by it. And I think that she is leading the way. I've been saying this from the beginning, that if we can get governors to evaluate this program and make their decision on its merits, then every single

is going to opt in. And so, you know, there's just a lot of myths out there. You know, the teachers unions are saying that, you know, this is going to hurt public schools. That's just so that's just so untrue. I think that, you know, not only public school students are eligible, but I think they stand to benefit most out of this program. And, you know, it's not going to cut state budgets. This is all additive. So if we can get governors to make the decision on its merits,

Every Democratic Governor is going to opt in. It's just taken some time and it's understandable that they're waiting for the rules to come out. You say everyone in the end is going to opt in. It's such a no-brainer. Okay, well, you know, we're going to have you back on that one because you're more inside than I, but I just see, particularly with a guy like Shapiro. Now, I would say this too. We're probably in agreement. Put the rules out. You know what? This is a major thing here. Let's get those rules out. What the heck takes? So there's got to be urgent.

on this of what the rules will be so that we've taken away the last excuse and now people have to decide straight up are you doing this or not i can't help but take a dig at the administration yeah well i'm sorry i am i am too it's hard to put the rules out when you fired like 50 of like okay so that's that's uh that's fine to do so i wanted to ask you in addition to school choice you are a

education reform. And that's ultimately what this show is about. Education reform, parental rights as a vehicle, and school choice are the vehicles. What is new and exciting that you're looking at on that front, aside from making the choice? We have to have then these choices there that fit parents. So what do you have on that? Yeah. So I, I mean, I'm excited about a number of things right now. You know, there's just much more of a conversation around

K-12 education. The truth is that on our side, on the Democratic side, we really haven't focused on this for a decade. It's been 10 years since we've leaned in and really talked about K-12. So I'm excited about the conversation that's taking place. There's a lot to be said around accountability. There's a lot to be said about reforming standards, all of that. What I am perhaps most excited about in education today is the bottom-up innovation.

that we see happening mostly in the form of micro schools. I mean, this is just really exciting stuff, right? You know, instead of this top-down bureaucracy and waiting for some distant bureaucrat to innovate, to serve like our particular needs, instead what we see is communities taking it upon themselves to create their own schools. So we're seeing former educators that are starting their own micro schools. You know, there are states that are just like far out ahead on this, like mostly through ESL.

I've been to the conferences for emerging schools or for micro schools for these new models. And no one has done this, but if you did a poll of the founders of these new micro schools, which are mostly happening in red states under ESAs, but if you did a poll of the founders of these schools and asked them what their political leanings are, I am convinced that somewhere like

70, 75% of them are Democrats. And so what's happening in these places is that progressives or Democrats are finding creative and innovative ways to use these funding tools to advance progressive ideas and progressive principles. And what I've been trying to do is to help blue state policymakers see what's happening around micro schools, see what's happening around bottom-up innovation, because I'm convinced that when they

see this, they're going to like it. They're going to like it and they're going to say to themselves, wow, there are ways that we can use these relatively new funding tools to advance our own priorities. And I think the tax credit program can be helpful on that end as well. But I'm excited about bottom-up innovation. And bottom-up innovation, we're talking about Montessori micro schools, we're talking about forest schools,

where your school building isn't this big fortress looking like structure. It's literally a cabin in the woods. I mean, that just oozes left of center sensibilities. It resonates with those sensibilities. And so I think that folks are going to like it. The last piece that I'll mention is that school choice, ESAs, these flexible funding tools,

They become so closely branded as conservative or Republican policies. But I'm not making the case for the left to become more Republican. I truly believe that there's nothing more progressive than these funding tools. And, you know, hence my point about the way that they're being used by Democrats in red states to start new schools. And I think that the devil is in the design.

So there's nothing inherently conservative or Republican about them.

It's a matter of like how we design these programs and make sure that the design in a way that helps us or aligns with and helps us advance our priorities.

And I think there are certainly ways to design a progressive ESA program that's much more flexible and designed to meet the needs of every single child.

Well, Godspeed on that. This was inspirational. And I'm in agreement with you.

This is where it ought to be and the politics of it and everything else align. And I think you're the guy that your persona, your beliefs, your background can bring more of these people on board. So you still think that every Democrat governor is going to sign off on the big, beautiful bill money in the end? Yeah. You know, it's the exact same thing as Republicans with Medicaid. You know, they're essentially against it. Most Republicans have signed on, but this is even more of a no-brainer.

And so I do think they will sign on. Let's hope that's the case. Jorge, thank you very much. Thanks for joining again to be continued. Thank you. My pleasure. All right. There is our special guest for this one year anniversary, Jorge Elorza. And Jorge brings quite a different perspective to this. And again, it's been a huge year in this. And you heard what he said, and he's inside this more than I, that he thinks in the end, we're going to see.

Most or all governors sign off on this. We'll catch you next week on Old School, New School, Next School. Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano is a presentation of Giordano Productions LLC. Copyright 2026. All rights reserved.