Guest: Ryan Walters, Superintendent of Public Instruction in Oklahoma.

Welcome to Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano, a podcast devoted to preserving your parental rights, including the right to choose the best school for your child. This podcast is dedicated to gaining the option of school choice for every parent in America.

Here's your host, educator and noted talk media commentator, Dom Giordano.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back into the School Choice Show with Dom Giordano and somebody that I'm talking with through Zoom and everything else, but I might be as few as 10 to 12 blocks away as we're holding this conversation.

I'm talking here with Pastor Bob Oliver. Pastor, I'm in Germantown, Mount Airy, in an undisclosed location,

But I think I'm pretty close to you. I could get to Germantown Avenue in about three to four minutes, I think. So where are you located? What's your church? 7500 Germantown Avenue. And our church is New Covenant Church of Philadelphia. We're on a lovely 40-acre campus. And this time of year is especially lovely. We have children from the Bahamas, from all over the country here for a retreat.

as I drive up the hill and see all the young people enjoying the space.

Now, you are part of this Black Ministers Group, Black Pastors Union for Education.

We spoke with your colleague, Pastor Robertson, out in Harrisburg, close to the action, and he recommended you as the Philadelphia representative.

Is there a model that you guys are using, that all of you are using, these learning centers?

Is yours like his, or is there some difference?

There's probably some nuance, but they're similar in that they are cyber charter schools. We operate under the rubric that is similar to a private school. So rather than having the child study at home and be homeschooled with their parents, they come to our campus and we focus on boys in particular from grade two to 10 in our model, which is a little bit different than what they do in Harrisburg and in other of the,

of the schools. And we teach them values. We develop character. We focus on STEAM, science, technology, engineering, art, and math. We add art so that if children want to be artistic, we allow that into the space. So we just broaden STEAM a little bit to add the arts.

So we're talking with Pastor Bob Oliver. Pastor, then why the cyber part? So you have people on the ground and the values part? Do you have teachers that are coming through the Internet? No, we actually have in our location. We have people who give oversight to the program. One has been a principal of a charter school. I worked on his board. I trust him with my life. He's phenomenal with the not-

not only the students but with implementing the vision that we cast for them to have a much better education in the sense that we challenge them and also create an environment where they know they're seen, they're heard, and they're loved. And his wife, it's a couple, they're both associate pastors at New Covenant, has also been an administrator at Eastern University. So they've been in education for decades.

They're physically here. They also have staff with them. So the cyber part comes in because we partner with Penwood, which is a cyber school. But what we've done is we flip the model so that we're in brick and mortar. There's a certain amount of required hours where we do the curriculum that is given to us from Penwood. And then we add for the balance of the day that we have them, our curriculum. And that's where we can do the character building.

teach them faith, et cetera.

Now, you know, I'm in the camp and you can tell me if you are too.

I mean, it seems out of Harrisburg that the cyber charter schools, I have a guy, Guy Sharaki, who writes statewide and is involved in politics, that particularly there's, they see this, I guess, as the weakest link.

those that think what we're talking about is too costly or a threat to the public schools, that there have been cutbacks proposed and some cutbacks on cyber charter schools. And as I understand it, these are cost efficient and you are an unusual model. What is it with the cyber charter that seems to provoke this type of response? I think in part the thorny part is related to choice.

the school district feels threatened by children who are in a certain catchment area who now are going to schools other than the school within their catchment area. I understand that some people as we are evolving the school choice nationally where it looks like the Department of Education is going to be changing in a way that some might call

a sea change and education will be distributed to the states.

And many states are rejoicing at the prospect of choice so that their children can be in an environment that is congruent with their values and that they can get an education that might be better than they can get in their zip code.

The reason I am for it is because my children go to school in the suburbs and they have all the resources they need.

My youngest son is in high school. He goes to a private school. We can afford to do that. But I know children who are in my church who are brilliant. They are scholars. They get all A's. They're probably in environments where they need to be challenged a little more. They don't have the latitude of choice. They should be able to get into any program that their intellect allows them to get into.

regardless of dollars. And I think the other piece that's thorny is the tax credits that will be given may not be enough to bridge that gap. I think that in our model, you get excellence and the cost to the parents are almost nil. We get private donors and then we have money that comes from the charter school. So we're a hybrid. I would call it a mixed model or hybrid, which I think

is, to me, above the fray, although there's still political wins that blow against us, as you rightly mentioned.

Those political wins, you know, in the beginning with Pastor Robertson, when I talked with him, he was pretty generous. The more that we went on, I see this as pretty negative, these political wins that are out there. For example, in the big, beautiful bill just passed, there's approximately $5 billion.

dollars for school choice. But what happens is each state has to opt in. The parliamentarian or something said it was not legal the other way to make it national. And I interviewed the other day Kim Ward, the Senate president, and a real powerhouse in Harrisburg about what's going on with the budget, etc. She told me, Pastor, and I was surprised she was this blunt, she doesn't believe that Josh Shapiro will opt in. The governor has power, and she

We reference this guy who's in the suburbs in Montgomery County, Matt Bradford, who's the guy that would hold that up and has is a pretty titanic personality, I think she said, that would hold this up. Do you have any sense? I know the ministers, the pastors, you guys are hooked in, rightfully so politically, because you have to do that to move these programs forward. And I'm not sure with Shapiro, if he did that, how in the world would you do that?

This program doesn't take away from the public schools, as you know. I believe it's $1,700 someone can send to these private entities that will be giving scholarships, and then you deduct that from your federal income tax. It avoids any of this sense that we're, quote, stealing from the public schools. Give me your sense. Do you share that, that this is up in the air?

I do share it's up in the air because I don't think all of the elements are settled on all sides of the aisle. I think there's some people who have a protectionist view for the status quo. And then there are others who literally look at the children across the spectrum and understand, and this is where my heart and our hearts are, that everyone should have the same opportunity.

And choice gives parents the opportunity to offer the best facilities, the best resources.

For example, if a child is intellectually capable of excelling, but they're in an environment where they don't have air conditioning, for example, or they don't have the basic necessities, they don't have computers,

They don't have the things that are necessary for them to do their basic work. Why not give them a choice to be in a different environment? And as you rightly mentioned, there is no competition for dollars. So the argument should no longer be about that. I don't know if Governor Shapiro will opt in or not.

that I plan to talk to. In fact, we've been dialoguing, but I have no line of sight or insight as to whether he will or will not opt in.

Yeah, but isn't that surprising? Let's talk about this both as good for the kids, but also as a political issue. What are the politics here? We all agree it's good for the kids. It doesn't attack the public schools directly, their funding or anything else.

Politically, though, when you're dialoguing with them, that this isn't a slam dunk, particularly with a governor who's trying to distinguish himself nationally and did talk about school choice and then kind of reneged on the initial thing. What's the politics of it, do you think? And I might add, too, when you look at the dynamics of this, we are dealing where you are and where I am in places like Germantown, in places of black and brown children.

you would think this stuff would line up on both sides pretty easily.

I could not agree more. I think there's a strong lobby.

And I think the.

The influence that the lobby once had in D.C.

If things are dispersed to the states will not be what it was.

There's no centralization.

All of the oversight and the regulation, which I think fuels some of the vitriol, some of the tension. I don't think fundamentally there's disagreement all that much across the aisle. I think where the tension comes in, as I mentioned earlier, there's this protectionism. But my question is, what are you protecting? If children are not meeting the basic requirements, what are you protecting? And then the next question is, what are you protecting?

are you for the children? This to me should be about the children, their futures. If America is going to be competitive in the next century and the way children are developed, for example, educationally in China, in Singapore, and looking at where we rank, everyone has to be lifted. We should all be focused on that goal. I think political wrangling, what we're talking about, developing leaders for the future.

people to occupy seats in government, people who can be doctors and scientists, et cetera. That should be where we invest.

And in broad sense, we're in agreement about lifting up all boats, all children. But you've referenced several times these kids that can excel. I'm a former public school teacher, somewhat in the suburbs, also at then called Southern High School in South Philly.

And I can tell you, I was younger then, even more energy than now.

But if you're trying to put the fires out because of the dynamic you have there with some kids and or parents that are not as caring, and you have these kids that excel, I have to tell you, as a teacher, you're often exhausted.

You can't give those kids what they might get in a better environment that has stability because you're too busy dealing with all these issues that go on every day.

Absolutely. On the other side of the coin, those who underachieve, I want to tell a quick story that fuels my passion.

Okay.

There was a charter school that I sat on the board for five years, and on the front end, we took all comers and children who were,

labeled as special needs, children who had high truancy rates, who had been kicked out of schools in North Philly and South Philly, we took all comers because we had a model that was different. And initially when we got the baseline test scores, it's like, oh my God, how are we going to pull ourselves out of this? And we started with the seventh grade and we built until we got our first graduating class.

and then we were middle school and high school. Here's the long and short. The first graduating class. 100% graduation. 100% college acceptance. 100% college attendance. Next year, the same thing. These were the same children who had a different environment, a different model that was adapted to them. We focused on the things that were related to their

and their purpose and they excelled. They were no longer born. They came from

neighborhoods that were dangerous. There were times that we had to

mourn with families. That was, those memories will stay with me forever.

But the success is now these young men and women are contributing. They're successful.

They're self-esteem. There's a generational shift when we focus on the needs of the children.

And I believe school choice affords that opportunity because you can create a model just as we are, the Black Pastors United for Education, not settling for the status quo. There's no ability for the parents to dream. They just worry about the environment they're sending their children to. There are some that they just hope they come home at the end of the day. So there are those who excel. There are those who underachieve.

I believe all of them can be reached in the right environment with the right care.

And when they're not just a statistic, they are individuals who have the right ratio of responsible teachers to focus on them.

They can learn. I've seen it.

When you hear the next level, I guess, is can we scale this up from what you're doing, your passion, your charisma,

your people that you have there, and we have a pretty good network of black pastors here. Is that able to move across and take thousands of kids? In other words, if we get this money and we get this choice, would it be possible for them to get those environments? I think it's possible. I'm certain that it's possible. I think it's going to be a collaboration between the funds that will come to the state. Let's assume we opt in.

But the private donors who care. And we've had some that we've interacted with who have values that align, whose vision aligns, and who have indicated a willingness. If we produce, if we execute to stand with us and to provide, that way we can give scholarships larger than $1,700.

as we can afford. And so to the question, is it scalable? We're going to find out.

Well, absolutely. Where do we find you? What's the best way to contact you, Reverend?

My email is pastoraliveratnewcovenantchurch.org. Pastor Oliver at newcovenantchurch.org. My phone number at newcovenant is 215-247-247.

7500, as in 7500 Germantown Avenue. How many kids do you have enrolled for the next school year coming this fall? So we just did a summer program. We had 30. Our objective for the fall is 50. And the program is called Salt and Light Academy for Boys. And the leaders and the educators overseeing it are Omar Barlow and Janine Barlow. They are exceptional.

As I said earlier, I trust them with my life. I got to observe some of the young men or young boys this summer and the stories I heard from their parents and guardians about them every day wanting to come, like rushing to come to school. And in the summer, they just want time off. But the stimuli that was in the environment created enthusiasm.

And many of those are now going to enroll in the fall.

That is tremendous. And again, the point of talking with you today, Pastor, is this laboratory, it's choice. And you are even different than when I talked with Pastor Robertson, this combination of the brick and mortar and the cyber here. And there are hundreds of variations on this that fit students. Just one parting question. We've talked about boys several times reaching them.

Is it male role models that helps with this? What is the secret sauce to try to reach the boys? You hit a very important part, male role models, but also understanding what makes them tick. And we think we're able to reach that. Now, probably for the first two years, it'll be an academy for boys. But our vision is to have a private school on our campus.

And then that'll be open to boys and girls.

But for the foundation, we think that looking at the statistics, especially for young Black males, and the number of them whose potential will never be realized because they're gunned down.

And one of the leading causes of crime, incarceration, is a lack of education.

We think if we can solve for that, and that's why we start early, second grade through 10th grade is where our focus is right now. We can change their destiny and the trajectory of their life. So it's not going to be always simply boys, but we think that we need to start there because there's a crisis in Philadelphia in that area, and they need to see role models, as you mentioned.

Absolutely. Pastor, I hope to meet you in person. Thank you for joining us today. Likewise. We're so close. You can walk down the street. I know where you are. It's a great campus. Pastor is a neighbor. Thank you. Thanks very much. All right. There's Pastor Bob Oliver here on the School Choice Show with Dom Giordano. A million different stories, as they used to say in the Naked City, you heard that variant of what he does.

One thing that I wanted to point to that we were talking with with the pastor to kind of end the podcast this week. I had on Kim Ward, who's a powerhouse in Harrisburg, the president of the Senate. I think the first female president may be of the Senate. Senate is very strong, divided government. And Josh Shapiro is running for president, national political figure. She told me point blank on my radio show that she doesn't believe Shapiro is going to sign off of the Senate.

What we were talking about, this new federal program and the big, beautiful bill, $5 billion, where it's $1,700 you contribute to these nonprofits that will be dispensing scholarships, and you get to take that off your federal income tax. She said this guy, Matt Bradford, who is a big Democrat out in the suburbs, Montgomery County, will never allow it.

Point blank. And this woman's tough, a charger, et cetera. She said she'll be shocked if Josh Shapiro does this. So the clock is ticking. You heard the conversation with the Reverend. This is money that will not be taken away from the public schools. So if Josh Shapiro doesn't, is it Bradford? And he's big with the teachers unions and things of that nature. And again, how are we taking resources away? We're not. If Pastor Bob Oliver, who to me, it just is filled with money,

with passion and results can reach these kids. Why would we not scale that up and be doing that? It's right in front of us, right in front of us on this podcast. So the clock is ticking for Governor Shapiro. You heard him say he's had conversations with people in the office. This ought to be a no brainer. Let the kids go. Let the parents go. Let's have school choice. All right. That's this week's edition of the School Choice Show with Dom Giordano. If you have a tip on anything,

a question, anything, email me at domshow at aol.com, domshow at aol.com, and I'll respond.

And remember, the clock is ticking.

Will Pennsylvania be rational?

A lot of states have already said they're going to do it.

What is the delay?

Sign off on this.

Let's get this done by August, at least, so that parents have a chance to say their

kid doesn't have to go back to this bad school.

They have the finances right now in the fall. It's got to be done now in order to get into a better school. But the clock is ticking. Dom Giordano, see you next week. Old School, New School, Next School with Dom Giordano is a presentation of Giordano Productions, LLC. Copyright 2025. All rights reserved.